Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

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nenadnenad
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by nenadnenad » 18 Mar 2009, 18:56

Drvo - razno razna sperploca , raznih debljina i od raznog drveta, ukljucujuci brezu :mrgreen:

http://www.frischeis.rs/2477.0.html

izvor linka, frishak je :
http://www.stolarskaradionica.com/forum ... hp?id=1016
da sada sam bas zvao imaju je od 18 mm trenutno i cene su sledece:

18 mm 29 eur 244x125 , extra klasa

18 mm okume (furnirana) 10,5 eur 244x125 I klasa
Pregledajte teme na tom forumu , ima jos informacija

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Rocket Roll
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by Rocket Roll » 16 Apr 2009, 22:18

Tehnotronik bi trebalo da drži "platno za pokrivanje kutija", ručke, nogice i uglove: http://www.tehnotronik.co.rs/default.asp?P=5

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michabass
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by michabass » 18 Aug 2009, 00:18

Pozdrav svima na forumu :D
evo malog doprinosa ovoj temi

Da ne bih uploadovao ili linkovao ponovo evo linka ka orig. threadu na talkbass forumu:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthrea ... ost6438937

Izrada bas kabineta za 2x10" Eminence.... :D

...pozdrav!

nenadnenad
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by nenadnenad » 14 Oct 2009, 18:43

http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/ff243/Casey4s/
Mislim da nisam dao link sa svim albumima [ sa leve strane su poredjani ]

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by Rocket Roll » 03 Feb 2010, 22:07

Na kraju ovog članka detaljne mere 2x12'', 2x10'' odnosno 1x12'' kabineta, plus još lepih stvari: http://www.award-session.com/pdfs/GEAR_TALK_1.pdf

nenadnenad
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by nenadnenad » 22 Feb 2010, 19:40

Malo konkretnog saveta u vezi izbora zvucnika posto ima mnogo gledanja u pasulj inace.
I can help out a bit here.

The specs on speakers are very revealing and you need to use those to guide your choices.

Wattage, the most popular doesnt tell you jack except the maximum wattage the speaker can accept. Its like a fuse rating to me. So long as you dont exceed it it wont blow. Thats it. It has nothing to do with tone or loudness or responce. Simply match the RMS to the amp and you're good. An rms level too great for the amp will likely never allow you to get good speaker breakup, and RMS too low is dangerous for the amp and speaker.

Impediance (DC Resistance) simply has to match. Thats about it.


SPL - a major key element is the Sound Pressure Level for the given wattage. The higher the number, the louder the speaker. Guitar speakers are normally over 90, HiFi below.

For a low wattage amp using a high SPL of say 105 would mahe the amp maybe 10db louder than a speaker with an spl of 95. (not exact math here but you get the idea.

A HiFi speaker is tuned to a cabinet and can have a lower SPL because the air mass works for the speaker to enhance the low end magnifying the bass. Crossovers and mids/tweeters push the other frequencies so, so long as the outputs of each are properly attenuated, the full frequency of all match and you get a full range of sound. The woofer merely needs to be linear as volume is increased, and within its responce curve. The porting of the cabinet keeps the speaker from pumping against the air mass, and the placement and length of the port makes the air moving through it in phase with the speaker virtually doubbleing the speaker efficiancy.

HiFi speakers sound terrible for guitar. they are woofey and lack mids and always have too much bass at all volumes. Guitar speaker frequency responce is midrange, so resonant frequency and bass arent a huge factor. Neither are the cabinets in comparison to Bass Pa etc.

The responce is targeted between the bass guitar on the low end and vocals/cymbals etc on the high end. This gives a frequency range of say 150~6K at the highest extreme, 5K is plenty.
Cabinets dont have a huge effect on these ranges so I wont get into huge detail and get into figuring air volume/tuning crossover and all like HiFi, bass and PA stuff requires. Even the Marshall cabs when first built didnt use math and resonant frequency responce in their building, it was more astetics and luck/gestimation in their design but sufficiant air needs to be there to give nice bass tone.

Open backed infinate baffel cabs are often used on stage and placed parallel or in front of a drummer and act as monitors eliminating the need to pump a signal through the vocal monitors. This keeps the drummer on beat and eliminates the need for expensive PA equipment. Closed backs are usually placed further back on larger stages and use higher wattage amps. Higher wattage means bigger pro PAs and monitor sends so the open backed isnt as important as a direct monitor.

So we have SPL = Loudness - frequency reponce = max/min - RMS matching - Cabinet choice for venue

Next and the most important is tone targeting.

Tone incorperates the entire chain. For example, you have a guitar with warm wood, hot pup with extreme output at 3K driven with an amp that has strong mids driving a speaker that has a strong 3K peak. Result may be great mids and speaker breakup for playing leads but uncontrollable mids for playing rythum. Then take a low impediance fender pup with a full range for a nice jangle, put it through the same setup and it may sound warm with the mid filling in but you cant adjust the mids out to get that same jangley fender sound.

This is where targeting a speaker to the amp responce comes in. If I had an unknown amp I would test it by pumping pink/white noise in and testing the output with a frequency analizer. The adjust the eq and plot the changes for trebble mids and lows. This can be done with simple computer software through a sound card properly connected.

Say the amp was simular to a marshall. The first 3 graphs below show the amp has a 5K, 1K and 100hz sweep for the controlls. If I bought a speaker I'd want one that could handel those frequencies efficantly. If I used a speaker that rolls of at 4.5K the amp wouldnt have the sparkle it should. My trebble knob wouldnt work efficiantly and I'd loose a good deal od SPL/DB level from the amp.

I want to target the speaker to the amp so the tone controlls give a fairly flat responce to the sound when set in the center, and plenty of +/- when adjusted up and down. This allows me to adjust the widest ranges for whatever guitar I might plug in. I would use the amp responce and use the Speaker responce graph, plus the approximate cab size to enhance the speaker responce and match the tone I want.

Now I've been leaving out the speaker design till last. Its very important too. The paper material, thickness, stiffness, spider, magnet etc all have different tonal effects. If I had an old tube amp with a farty low end that sounds flabby and wanted to tighten it up I'd likely go for a speaker with a stiffer cone to tighten up the low end. If I wanted it to break up smooth earley on the volume controll might try low wattage alnico speakers in multiples. If I want clean chords with littel breakup but punchy, I might go for a stiff coned ceramic speaker. If the amp lacks low end punch I may use a speaker with a looser cone and spider. If I want more rip, I'd use a thin paper cone. If the amp needed more mids I'd look at the responce curve, target the mids lacking and choose a speaker that was hyped in that area, if the amp sounded small and middely, I'd do the opposite.

Theres alot more to it and experience and choices of speakers are important. You just need to be sure you have good controll of the frequency spectrum between the bass guitar and vocals/cymbals on stage. Anything above 5K creates competition/masking of the vocals. Most guitar amps dont reproduce sounds in that range anyway so piercing hyped highs would only be an ice pick in your ears anyway. Got a deep voice, target the amp with less high end, have a female vocalist, push the high end a littel. Deep bass guitar, less low end so the band doesnt sound muddy, slap bass, maybe a littel more low end to compensate for the lows missing on the bass. (or you could do the opposite and keep the guitar in its own range that doesnt mask the bass. The choice is yours. This is about it for now.

Heres the specs on one speaker and you can analize them yourself.
Heres one I pulled from Parts express that has all the specs. The speaker has an SPL of 100 which is fairly loud, better than say Jensons. The responce curve has a big spike at 2~5K. If I wanted to get say a fender amp to sound more like a marshall, this might be a good choice.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-840s.pdf

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=290-840

If I had a fender guitar and amp with weak mids I might choose something like this to boost the lower mids
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-804s.pdf


Again a lower 2K bump
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-808s.pdf

A 1.5K notch and plenty of upper mids
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-816s.pdf

The difference in tone between 1~5k is very great. A small bump can easily be detected by our ears whereas a change in frequency at 10~20K is limited. An amp with a 2K bump is going to sound very different than a 3k, 3.5K 5K etc so theres quite a range in the middel for speaker matching once you know where the amp is most efficiant at.

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nenadnenad
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by nenadnenad » 22 Feb 2010, 19:45

Originally Posted by SoldierStape01 View Post
WOW thank you WRG... That is exactly what I have been looking for.

Now I have a question for you about analyzing your amps eq responce range. You said about using the white/pink noise and measuring that with an analyzer while adjusting the EQ controls. If that process is not an option running through a computer right now at least, what are some other options for getting that information.

I did go onto the manufacturers website site and checked the owners manual. It said that:
Treble - 6 kHz
Mid - 1 kHz
Low - 150 Hz
each at their respective dB ranges. My question is are those numbers accurate enough to go off of or should I allow room for age to take effect?
Figured you'd ask about that one.

Those details should be good to work with but it doesnt give you an idea as to how much thay adjust those ranges nor their Q/width.


There are a few options here for testing.
1. You can download a program called RAL and install it on a computer with a standard sound card.

2. Next you can download these files and burn them to a disk or cassette. http://www.burninwave.com/ (I havent tried the wave files on that site, if they dont work well, gust google or PM me I'll send you copies that work. You can loop the files if they're too short. They also make pink/white hardware noise generators and even have kits).


3. * You can play them back from the computer into the amp but the Frequency analizer program may not be full duplex. RAL has a frequency generator built in and can send a signal out on the left and can analize the right coming back in. In either case, the main thing is you dont want to create a feedback loop, so if you have a portable CD or cassette player you might want to pump that into the amp and play the pink noise into the amp. I have a recording setup in the studio so line ins and outs are all ready to go. Getting a stock card working right may take a littel time but I have done it with many sound blaster type cards.


4. Next you have a few choices. You can mic the amp and run the cable into the 1/8" mic jack.

If the amp has a line out you can plug it directly into the 1'8" The Line in jack on the computer.

You can run both in and compare the direct signal to the speaker responce like you would using a dual trace oscilloscope.

This would be good for comparing the actual amp output to the miced speaker. If you have say a huge change in trebble adjusting the amp and very littel happening from the speaker, it may be the speaker is inefficiant in that frequency range.

6. The best way is to take the signal from the amp is to tap a line level from the from the speaker jack using a DI box. This will allow testing of the amp preamp and power amp coloring.

Heres a diagram on how to do this. You can build this into an amp and have a cabinet simulated output after the power stage or build it into a small box with a shielded cable in place of the amp jack, or have two jacks and run the wire from the head to it, then straight to the cabinet. You can also replace the one resistor connecting the amp hot side to the second jack with a pot so you can vary the output as options.

7. Anyway, you connect this line out to the computer, get the RAL program running, Select the frequency analizer, pump the pink noise in, then slowly crank the volume. You dont need much. If its connected right you should hear sound in the computer monitors. You can adjust the levels in the program for optimum viewing. Then use the tone controlls to view the contour.

8. Another way is if you have a HiFi EQ with a frequency readout, you could use that set flat, then view the amp output without having to deal with the computer or program. You can pick them up like the radio shack, BIC, and tons of others for $10~20. They just need the frequency level readout on the front panel.


9. They do make hardware generators and kits. You can then just plug into an amp, then have the DI box coming out of the amp, straight into an old EQ with the frequency display and have the whole setup in your workshop.

10. Whats also good for guitar work is to have a db level meter like from an old cassette player. Set it for record and you can use the level meters to view pickup outputs or adjust the balance and heights so the output is even. Most of the time you dont need the DB level to be accurate, just need it for a/b comparison between high and low strings or one pup to another to even outputs up.

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Da ne kopiram dalje i mozda eventualno izbacim neke stvari iz konteksta, evo cela tema: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... ?t=2566390

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by dejankuki » 20 Oct 2010, 21:55

Prvo.. pola linkova vise ne radi.. napusteni hostovi ili ugaseni sajtovi...

drugo.. u mom od-boga-zaboravljenom gradu ... ajd sto nema mleka.. jbga prioritet su veci gradovi, ali ni foocking drvenarije ne mozes posteno da nadjes... u jednoj prodavnici sam nasao madeinjapan (MDF) i ivericu... e sad.. sta je bolje... jer sam ja biJo zacrtao da pravim combo od sper ploce 1,5mm ili 1,8mm... ali posto toga nema.. sta je bolje, MDF ili iverje...

pod tri, da li je MDF = presovani karton a iverica = stiscena trina ili nesto gresam..

cetvrto.. sta je bolje, ekseri, srafovi, zlebovi, klinovi ili lepljenje... ili neka kombinacija...

peto... znam da sve zavisi od "dizajna" ali da li da odvajam pojacalo od kutije ( poprecnom daskom) ili da bude jedna slobodna kutija..

sesto... da li transformator i zvucnik nece smetati jedan<>drugom ako transformator postavim u dolnjem uglu kutije, tik ispod zvucnika... pa ga kablom povezem sa pojacalom...


sedmo... i ja sam se izgubio sta sam hteo... :nixweiss: :wallbash_2:


aj' molim vas barem neke stvari da pocnem da razjasnjavam.... :cekic: hmmm bio sam ubedjen da imamo smajlija koji se upucuje.. (samoubiva)

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by Rendisha » 20 Oct 2010, 22:57

Ako ikako mozes, izbegni medijapan / ivericu jer nisu namenjeni prenosenju i akanju vec su vise za "stacionarnu" upotrebu. Jako su osetljivi na vlagu i dosta teski (pogotovo medijapan) tako da ako mislis da ga ipak cimas tamo-amo, ima da zaglavis diskus herniju :) . Ako vec moras, idi na medijapan, laksi je za obradu. OBAVEZNO zastiti od vlage posle sklapanja/ lepljenja kabineta, makar one delove koje neces mazati lepkom prilikom lepljenja vinila / itisona ili sta vec planiras.

Za spojeve - keksaricu verovatno nemas (kao ni ja) i za spajanje predlazem lepljenje (henkel / titebond) i tiplove + letvice za ugaona ojacanja (nece da skodi a ni da bude nesto teze zbog njih). Ja medijapan spajam tako sto sklopim kutiju, stegnem pa prosviram rupe vodilje kroz koje uteram srafove. Rasklopim sve, namazem lepkom, spojim, prisrafim + stegnem stegama. Zasto stavljam srafove? Lakse mi je u toj fazi da necim osiguram da mi se ne pomeraju ploce. Kad se lepak osusi, izvadim srafove pa rupe prosirim za tiplove. Zabodem / zalepim i to je to.

Medijapan - fakticki presovana prasina / jako sitna drvena vlakna; iverica - presovana piljevina, cesto razlicitih velicina - finija na licu i nalicju, krupnija u sredini.

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by dejankuki » 21 Oct 2010, 00:36

Ako izbegnem MDF i ivericu, sta da trazim...?

ajd za spajanje cu nesto i da "izmislim" ima ovde tri firme koje se babe izradom namestaja, valjda cu da nadjem nekog da mi spoji to... ali pravicu kombo...1x12" i pojacalo.. jel' ce to da bude bas tesko?


e da... jel moze 10mm dbljine..? da ne idem na 18..19...20...mm

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by Rendisha » 21 Oct 2010, 11:45

Trazi ono sto si rekao da nema - sper :lol: Nemoj ici ispod 12mm (za sper) a posto kvalitetan - brezov sper ces tek tesko naci, onda bolje gledaj 15 ili 18mm.

Pitaj da li mogu da ti spoje na lastin rep ili cinkovanjem (cink spoj - http://jawoodworking.com/wp-content/upl ... -joint.jpg)

jel' ce to da bude bas tesko? - Mislis u kg ili znanje-imanje / vreme izrade... ?

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dejankuki
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by dejankuki » 21 Oct 2010, 14:17

U kilogramima... madeinjapan i/ili iverica..?

a za izradu. jbga, moje je, za mene je.. kako izgleda nek izgleda...

no, sta bi sa onim tehnickim-elektronskim delom, hoce li smetati zvucniku transformator i obrnuto..? neko...??

Rendisha
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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by Rendisha » 21 Oct 2010, 15:06

Ovde imas nesto o masi odredjenih plocastih materijala http://www.stolarskaradionica.com/forum ... php?id=551 pa uzmi racunaj.

Zvucnik ti je maltene u centru pa stavio trafo odozgo ili dole, sve jedno je, mada ne vidim zasto bi ga drzao odvojenog od ostatka elektronike. Da li uopste oces da pravis neku repliku odredjenog comboa ili cisto pravis neku "kutiju" za zvucnik i pojacalo? Ako radis prvo, drzi se originala, ako radis drugo - radi sta 'oces :)

Imas ovde lepo dokumentovane izrade jednog comboa (18Watt Lite II) i par glava / kabineta:
http://silvatone.bravepages.com/

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by kwiss » 21 Oct 2010, 16:02

dejankuki wrote:Ako izbegnem MDF i ivericu, sta da trazim...?

ajd za spajanje cu nesto i da "izmislim" ima ovde tri firme koje se babe izradom namestaja, valjda cu da nadjem nekog da mi spoji to... ali pravicu kombo...1x12" i pojacalo.. jel' ce to da bude bas tesko?


e da... jel moze 10mm dbljine..? da ne idem na 18..19...20...mm
Blažujka,vodootporna čvršća od drveta a i skuplja od drveta.Po meni ako je kabinet za gitarsko pojacalo drvo koristi sto lakše to bolje npr. borovina najbolja.Skokneš na ono brdo Borik isećes i pravis posle 5 godina :XD:

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Re: Izrada Gitarskog / Bas Kabineta - Bez Mistike, Samo Podaci!

Post by dejankuki » 21 Oct 2010, 16:15

kwiss wrote:Skokneš na ono brdo Borik isećes i pravis posle 5 godina
Pored mene nema brda Borik... ni u nekoj blizoj okolini... :?:



Ne pravim nikakvu repliku, pokusavam sam da nesto sprckam i umetnem polu-handmade polu fabricko pojacalo.. to nema veze u kutiju koja ce to da drzi sve na okupu... a hteo bih da stavljam transformator na dno iz prostog razloga da bih mogao lakse da ugnjezdim predpojacalo, pojacalo i kontrole na vrhu.. svega toga. Ukoliko bih stavljao i transformator onda ce mi trebati nesto poput rama ili nekoih drzaca.. ovako sam miran da mi nece pasti i mozda ostetiti ploce sa elementima... (nadam se da je jasno o cemu pricam...)

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